Review: Supernatural 2.0, Lime Prime Lite (long)

when i got this wax i couldn't wait to try it out! it has a carnauba-like scent. plain off-white color. first i polished my Jet Black BMW 325i with Menzerna PO85RD to take off some water marks and such. then i did a ISA wipedown. then followed with DODO Lime Prime Lite.

Lime Prime lite- went on smoothly, i applied it via Makita rotary on a blue ccs pad @ speed 1. i let it sit for a while, then went to buff it off. i wasn't sure if it was supposed to be left to haze or not, but i wiped it off after about 3 minutes (as per directions) with DI's REthickulous MF towel. it wasn't the easiest thing in the world to get off... i had to buff once, turn the cloth, and buff again.

DODO Supernatural- i applied it using my bare hands (i wasn't sure if i should have applied it via a applicator or not...). you have to use considerably more than Swissvax Smargd in order to get it to spread. it seemed as if all the carnauba was not completely dissolving, because no matter how much i rubbed my hands together there were still little beads of wax that would not melt. after i did about 2 panels i noticed that there was some sort of orange-brown colored build up on my hands. so i tried to get it to the middle of my palms, but it just wouldn't spread onto the paint... im assuming this was the carnauba that wouldn't melt in my hands? so i did about 2-3 panels (say the hood and fenders) let it sit for about 10 min (as per directions) and then went to wipe it off. also using a reThickulous MF towel. i buffed it once, flipped the towel and buffed again, and there was still a lot of wax left behind... so i did the rest of the car. after i went around with FK1# 425. i had to do the whole car 3 times to get it all off!

well that sat overnight and i went to a big meet this morning. once i got there i noticed that the wax had started to sweat like crazy all over the hood. it was about 90 degrees outside, and like 100% humidity, and clear skies, so the sun was very intense. the car sat outside for about 6 hours in direct sunlight. when i got back to my car it looked almost white it sweated so much!

anyways, i going to try a 2nd coat with a applicator pad tomorrow, because maybe it isn't meant to be applied by hand? it looked great in the morning when i first took it out of the garage, but after it sweated so much i had some second thoughts. il get back to you guys on beading, and how the 2nd coat turns out.

 

that sucks... i hope you get everything straightened out. wish i had more info but i never used any of the dodo products. good luck

 

I THINK (not completely sure, but Dom will step in and say something), that the hand application is where you went wrong. I applyed half by hand and half by app pad. The app pad side looks much better and didnt you as much as the hand app. I agree didnt spread too well. I hope Dom steps in and gives a step by step applying and buffing off instructions because i want to know also!

EH HEM... DOM

 

hmm i thought the version 2 had been improved to be softer and more suitable for hand application.

I had version one which I reckon is quite a hard wax, but I did make the mistake of putting on too much....so yeah...hard to buff off.

i must say I have been spoilt by the wasy wipe on wipe off waxes though...

 

Lime Prime Lite - I find this best if you remove straight away, do a little section at a time, wipe it on -> work it -> remove it. If you find it has dried a bit too much, a little spritz of water will soften again and it will remove easily again.

SN - Sounds like it was a little too thick. Even though I like applying by hand myself, I think applicator will be best to get it on nice and thin. Nice and thin will be easy to remove, it will also cure better and quicker which should also stop the sweating. Must say I have never seen SN sweat myself, but then we also haven't had 90 degrees heat with 100% humidty over here!

 

OK, basically, this is what is going on:

Lime Prime Lite - this can stick on if left too long; it is very climate dependent... in Western Europe you can leave it 3 mins, but even then it can be difficult to remove on a hot day... applying it by machine doesn't help as it it heats the panel up more and it doesn't contain polishing particle... however, some do get good results with applying it by machine. The trick is either to apply it in small sections, panel (or part-panel) by panel almost as a 'Wipe On Wipe Off' product. Or just spritz it with some water when you come to remove it. It comes off easily with a water spritz. The bonding action is a good thing when it comes to durablity of the product on the surface, but it can make it difficult to work with. Catch 22.

OK, Supernatural v2... another Catch 22! We have increased the solids content and the carnauba content of SNv2. The grains are basically all that carnauba. When you apply these to the paint, because of the friction and solvent, they dissolve the grains. They are softer than the paint as they are a carnauba solids rather than pure carnauba powder. We recommend applying two coats by soft foam pad for best results. The problem is that when you apply by hand, your hands are softer than the carnauba and help it crystallise into these grains (instead of breaking them down as would happen on a harder surface, the action causes them to clump together). Your paintwork never notices them, but your hands do. You can still apply the product by hand, but don't worry about the grains - it is a good sign as it shows the product is laden with carnauba. If you want a less grainy product, it is easy to do... you up the beeswax or solvent in the product, but we made SNv2 to be an extremely high carnauba product.

The main problem you have had is overapplication... there is so much carnauba in the mix compared to normal waxes that it continues to crystallise on your car after initial buffing. We always suggest buffing again after 30 mins. If the wax rehazes, you have effectively put so much wax on the car it couldn't be removed in one go and has relayered itself! Just buff it off again. Simple. You have probably put more carnauba on it in one go than it has ever had before in its life

 

thanks for the great post!!!!!!!!!! that is informative and easy to comprehend.

i love posts that explain it all and can help us not only with this wax but with others and other application issues we have.

my problem with wax in general is i use too much. i always see a layer put down and i am like that doesn't look like 100% i need to see more wax on there so i put a nnice amount then i have hazing issues. this happened when i globbed my hood with Crystal rock. i polished the hood and took everything off with some sv cleaner fluid then applied the wax in a thinner coat and now the hood looks like the rest of the car. and the beads were identical to the rest of the car that had been waxed 2 weeks before. i really think i will get at least 4 months out of one application. i usually wax once every 1-2 months. this time i might wait it out too see how long it lasts.

what is the nuba content of the supernatural? or is that a secret?

 

We don't reveal carnauba percentages because it is too misleading. For example, the carnauba percentage could be 93% measured as a proportion of solids, but there are only 1% solids in the mixture... total = 0.93% carnauba, not very good. But if you had a figure of 24% carnauba with 30% solids, you would have 7.2% carnauba in the product, almost 8x more.

Unfortunately, the marketers have run away with carnauba percentages and confused and misled the market, just like hi-fi manufacturers have done with Watts. The sad thing is that carnauba just one part of a complex recipe. We made a genuine 70% carnauba wax, measured as in it contained 70g of carnauba for every 100g of product, and it was a lousy car wax - to the point where it couldn't be applied and wasn't as shiny as a regular wax if you did manage to get some of the product onto paintwork. Remember, you can lay down 3x layers of a 20% carnauba product and you'll have more carnauba on the panel than 1x layer of one that is 40%. It is like using one coat paint. Two coats of a cheaper product can lay down as much carnauba if that is your aim. But I repeat, carnauba is only part of the mix... what matters are the results, whatever is or isn't inside the product.

You will be lucky to get more than 3 months out of any carnauba-based wax, due to the UV degredation of carnauba, assuming the car sees the light of day. Thin, multiple layers are best. Sealants may have increased durability due to the way their molecules link, but again it does depend on solids content and the rest of the recipe. Why do you think sealant manufacturers want you to prep and layer? Sealants are typically liquids with a lower solid content, so layering is much more important.

 

Good solid thread. Tons of good info, thanks guys.

 

Haven't tried the new SN, but how come some of the Dodo waxes don't last as long as some of the SV waxes?

 

Examples?

We have had reports of up to 16 weeks of durability from Supernatural v1, which is about as far as carnauba waxes generally go. Durability reports can be very subjective and difficult to qualify... beading may diminish after weeks but the protection could last for months. People may assume the wax has gone when it hasn't, or prop up a failing wax with wax-laden shampoo or even a quick detailer... and assume it lasts all year.

Even if you were guaranteed at least the same or additional durability from SV, you could put on more Dodo wax per dollar due to the price difference, so there wouldn't be an economic argument for doing so. It would have to last twice as long or something, and that just won't happen from a carnauba wax.

 

How do you actually tell when your protection is gone then besides sheeting and beading on clean paint?

Well from my experience i did a side by side with Dodo and SV and found the beading to be just about the same for the first week, but after that Dodo beading went downhill while SV remained pretty tight.

 

That is the whole point... you can't tell durability just from beading or sheeting - although it can be indicative, of course.

For example, say that beading did trail off sooner... do you know that the wax has gone? Or how do you know that the layer that beads worse due to the surface becoming more pitted more quickly through UV degradation isn't thicker than the other side? The thickness of the laid down layer will have more to do with durability than how smooth the surface is. What if one wax had UV inhibitors in it to prevent this, but was thinner overall? Or what if it contained more silicone to enhance visual beading? Would it last as long or is it just a short term fix?

It is a very difficult subject to quantify or qualify. We know that something like SNv2 is a top class wax with top class durability, and that our other waxes have had good durability reports, as well. At least in line - if not better - than their competitors. But what if one 'wax' actually has more 'sealant' type ingredients in, so wasn't competing on the same terms. Or what if it had ingredients that led to a very durable coating that didn't bead or sheet well at all?

In your test, the SV wax you applied vs the Dodo one you applied (which ones out of interest?) may last or be lasting longer. We just don't know. But beading/sheeting doesn't necessarily prove it for sure.

We stand by our products as being as durable as carnauba waxes can hope to be, whilst delivering good performance in terms of looks and offering good value against costlier competitors. However, when one of our basic waxes outlasted a sealant in one independent report, we had to keep an open mind there as well. Durability is effectively a subjective measure these days, not an objective one. We know that sealants can technically last longer on a surface as a coating, but it depends on sealant, application and number of layers. We also know that natural waxes can be fairly durable but tend to offer easier application.

 

Thanks for the info Dom!! Nothing like getting info straight from the manufacturer!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Well, I don't want to say that Matrix 808 is wrong or that our waxes do last as long as SV waxes, maybe they don't, just that it is very tricky to know for sure. I said it is effectively subjective, as there are no objective, independent tests that are being carried out. So it all relies on manufacturer's claims and consumer reports - biased at worst and subjective at best.

For example, for every report we have of 'x' wax lasting longer than Dodo, we have someone posting that Dodo lasts longer than 'x' wax in their opinion or 'y' wax or whatever. And then someone defends 'y' wax in the next post. Everyone basically means 'I suspect SV outlasts Dodo' rather than 'SV outlasts Dodo'. It then really needs proving either way as a hypothesis.

To show you how confusing it can be, the beading of a test panel I had was poor after a rain storm about 3 weeks after application... I know the wax will last far longer, but I was dismayed by the relatively flat beading. So I went out and spritzed the panel to see if it was just the rain beads, but the spritz beads were fairly flat too. Then, after a week, it rained again and the beading was much more upright - really good. I was astounded. I had almost written off that formula because of one lot of flat beading. Maybe the rain was hitting the panel in a different way (I just leave it outside, face up, to get a pounding from the sun's UV rays and the rain), but it shows how you have to be careful interpreting what you see.

Subjective opinion can be helpful, of course, so we never mind it. We improved Supernatural because although some had got as much as 16 weeks from it *subjectively*, others were reporting half that *subjectively*. We can't go around saying, well, he's a pro and he's an idiot, so we take it all in. If 100 people say the same thing, they are probably saying the right thing. But we tend to get an even share of positive/negative reports. When a product is ver-performing or under-performing against the expectations of that product, whether ours or not, we will look at it and work out why that is. Does that super long lasting wax actually contain some sealant ingredients? Are they using a tonne of silicones? Are their solvents a bit more aggressive but not as consumer-friendly as the ones we like using? If we can up our game, we will

And of course, the biggest worry of all is simply misinformation, and the internet is as good for misinformation as good information - it is only as good as the filters in your brain. Take the shot below. This is of Supernatural v2 beading. But it is just after application. If I was to claim it was 3 months later, how can you prove otherwise? I don't think it happens often but until there are independent and verifiable tests you have to just take a very general view of any reports and treat them as being interesting but subjective.

 

But Crystal Rock gets a full YEAR of protection!!!

:tiptoe:

 

Verified by who?

Assuming you get the independent and verifiable report, which I would love to see, it would be worth close scrutiny to see the conditions of the test etc. There are too many variables... is a coating being topped up after application, is the test relevant to real world conditions, have multiple layers been applied or just one, what prep-work has been done (or not?). You'd need to see the report, or just swallow the claim wholesale

 

Haha, that's why I put the tip-toe emoticon underneath my statement. This claim is made when you read the description for Crystal Rock. It might be one the finest waxes out there, but I find a one-year durability claim a bit excessive.

 

LOL, yup I saw the tippy toe

If it is a verifiable or verified claim I will eat a panel pot of Dodo Juice. You can choose the flavour.

 

In fact, I am not even sure that it was formulated a year ago, so that would put it in the realms of guesswork... unless I'm wrong, of course, which I am happy to be.