106ff issues

I've been reading a lot in other forums about problems with 106ff, especially on soft paint. The posts below are from members in another forum in response to my question regarding filling abilities of 106ff and it pretty much sums up the other issues. Please read and tell me if you have found this to be the case wit 106ff (especially on soft paint) or if you completely disagree. I will be doing a Nissan Ultima in 2 weeks and I plan to hit it with 106ff and a white pad (maybe orange), but now I am not sure.

"I think the final agreed-to consensus was that PO106FF unintentionally hides defects, due to the oils used as lubes in the polish. Menzerna blatantly denies PO106FF as having *any* filling properties"

"No, I do not believe 106ff has fillers, at all (traditional fillers such as clay or heavy oil).

From my conversations with various manufacturers, here is what I have come up with. (Again much of this is based on conversations with various people, but the conclusions are my own.)

106ff (as well as many of their other products) are "Production" polishes. They are developed for specific conditions on in an assembly factory. Many companies make production polishes, but because these products are so focused, they are rarely sold outside the production line (and their cost is very prohibitive). They can have problems when used in dynamic environments, such as what most detailers have, and when not used on paint similar to what they where designed to be used on.
So by "us" using 106ff on anything less then fresh, Mercedes Benz paint, with the approved pad and polish, in the right temperature and humidity, we are using 106ff outside its environment and thus using it incorrectly. However, as many have noted, 106ff and SIP (when they work) can produce stunning result. When they don't work you can get pad hop, pad skip, grabbing, etc...

I have also heard that 106ff uses a wax type lubricant in 106ff, designed to lengthen the work time (to cut the cerma-clear). I am not 100% sure if this is true or not.

When the paint is polished (via rotary) the foam of the pad contacts and rubs against the paint. Depending on the paint hardness, lubrication, and mechanical action of the foam, the pad itself can leave amazing small abrasions into the paint. On softer paints, these abrasions would obviously be bigger.

I believe that the carrier (or lubrication oils) of 106ff can leech into these incredibly small abrasions and be very stubborn to remove. This would explain why most people whom I have spoken with regarding this "masking issue" have noticed it on cars that typically have softer paint. Also, this explains why the problem seems to happen most with people who are using a polishing pad to finish the paint.

If you really want to finish the paint, you have to use a pad with little to know no mechanical action, and use a polish with an abrasive that breaks down at a slower rate (to insure that it "cleans itself up").

I recommend that you wipe the paint with a solvent (though this could be more dangerous) though I know Ryan swears by using a high percentage alcohol wipe down (91% un-diluted). The alcohol is probably a safer alternative, but it needs to be strong.
I think this should be down on every car before applying a wax or sealant (unless it is part of a system such as following Meguiars #80 with #26, since the oils in #80 and #7 are the same).

Even then, I had noticed longer durability from Meguiars #21 after wiping the paint down with a solvent after polishing with #80. On top of #80, Meguiars #21 would give me about 2 months. With the wipe down, I was able to get about 3 months. Also, many people have noted issues with sealants have very short life cycles when used on top of 106ff…."

 

I would agree and have said it over and over, but only gotten shit for it. Experiment with it yourself and you'll see.

 

What are we agreeing on? A Prep-Sol wipe down before your LSP aids longevity?

Isn't this a 'duh' thing?

 

Umm no, did you read the post at all?

 

Yep. Sure did. I see "106ff" fills minor abrasions... and then I see that an IPA/Prep-sol wipedown aids LSP longevity.

I also see a bunch of hearsay about how Menzerna polishes only work at X degrees and at X% RH. Not that I have anything to refute it otherwise with.. but none the less.

Was trying to figure out which one you were agreeing with. I chose the one I agreed with.
:catfight:


*Edited for further explanation.

 

Didnt think someone would read a huge post like that all about 106, then focus on a few sentences about how wipe downs aid in longevity. Just seemed to me like you missed the entire purpose of the thread.

Basically what it comes down to is 106 will hide imperfections when used incorrectly. As far as wipe downs, I believe they leave a better bonding surface for your LSP.

 

JC man! And I just posted this thread: http://www.detailingbliss.com/forum/f31/why-i-like-db-3092.html. If I wanted to read this kind of bickering I can do that at Autopia. Let's keep it friendly, helpful, and professional here.

 

Any polish that is used incorrectly will hide defects ,that why i use a paint cleaner or IPA wipe down ALWAYS!

 

I think we're quite a bit away from Autopia. How I miss the 2001/2002 era over there.

 

:nod: I would have to agree with your statement mixxer, well said.

 

I've used the final polish ii formula for the first time a month ago, with a ccs white pad on a flex 3403. Not far into the process i got grabbing of the pad and product, i was under the impression it was the pad more so than the product. Now after reading various feedback, it seems to be the product. I switched to a Megs pad (w9006) foam finishing pad and my problem was eliminated. Thanks for the input, i thought the grabbing was me, more so than the product. Now, i'm not sure what to make of it, have to try different procedures i guess.I'm still in a high degree of finding out what works best, so take my dealings lightly.

 

You call that bickering? man oh man, far from it.

Just to give you a heads up, every site has drama here and there, including this one. Ive been here from the beginning and I can tell you this site has had its fair share. Not as bad as Autopia however.

Now back on topic. Ive noticed the filling on my black mustang and some other dark softer paints. I also have problems getting 106 to break down correctly under temps of about 50*F. IMO, 106 shouldnt be used to correct imperfections, and it should be used with a blue finishing pad. Same thing goes with UF. A finishing polish is called a finishing polish for a reason.

 

i wonder if this would be the same case with 106FA

 

I believe it would. Remove your imperfections with SIP, then hit it with your finishing polish whether its 106FA, FF, or 85rd.

 

Yes, remember that 106FA is just another vesion of 106FF. I know that the 106FA has more lubrication then 106FF but I would assume it would be have the same...but again that' just me "assuming" no facts to back it up.

 

106 on a finishing pad? I'd consider a light polishing pad, but not a finishing pad... Hmm... I'll have to consider it. I could more see '085rd on a finishing pad.

I have had trouble using menz products over 90 deg F. They dry instantly, clump, and grab.

 

I used 106ff/white pad combo this weekend on my wife's Toyota Highlander, which to my surprise had medium to hard cc. So far, I am pleased with the results, but I will be inspecting it closely to see if any swirls return, which would indicate filling.

 

Ive done numerous cars w 106FF, I think any "filling/swelling" blah blah is user error and nothing else.

Ive seen people finish with wool, or orange pad. (Not saying that you should or I can).

So bottom line, if you are getting bad results, you suck, not the product

 

never had a problem with 106ff. I like it with a white or a blue pad. I find it takes away minor swirls

 

thanks... i would def use Sip or IP before fa but lets say very minor swirl marks, wouldnt you start it with fa to see how it works.. this is getting interesting..

thanks that I know... now people are saying to use finishing pad with fa and ff...

thanks.. wow.. finishing pad for fa or ff?