Interesting points about 'nuba

I just got of the phone with a pretty well know formulator who works for a major wax producing company. I'm not going to drop names and I don't know if what he told me is 100 percent accurate, but I though it would make for an interesting discussion.

I asked him about high percentage carnuaba waxes, specifically P21s 100, Zymol, and Swissvax. I asked if there was any benefit. His response was that no modern wax contains more then 10 percent carnuaba wax by volume. I asked him to explain.

When a company like Zymol tells you that they have 80 percent carnuaba wax, they are referring to the percentage of carnuaba in the amount of wax. That is, if the wax makes up 15 percent of the volume, then 80 percent of that wax is carnuaba. He went on to say that some older waxes (he named some old school brands that I never heard of) used as high as 30 percent wax in the old days, but the solvents needed to cut the wax are pretty wild and not enviromentally friendly.

Carnuaba is harder then concrete in natural forum and has to be softened and cut to be used in liquid or paste form. With modern California VOC regulations, I was told that it is basically impossible to get more then 10 percent carnuaba volume with out the use of harsh, fast drying solvents. These harsh, fast drying solvents are what create a "hard" feel to the wax, such as Meguiars #16.

Also, Carnauba wax is not glossy. Not at all, it is very cloudy and opaque and doesn't reflect light very well. It is the oils and solvents added to the 'nuba that produce the "nuba look" not the nuba itself. Also, while 'nuba wax does have great protective abilities, it melts at 139 degrees and once cut with sovlents, evaporates rather quickly. Most of the actually wax content is gone from the surface of the car pretty quickly. Its the oils, silicones, and solvents that stay behind and maintain the look, long after the wax is gone.

The last point that he made was that there is no such thing as white or pure carnauba wax. Over 99 percent of the carnauba wax harvested comes from a small area in Brazil, and for it to be commerically avialabe, it has to be #1 standard. #1 Standard is in reference to the color, which is a yellowish adobe color. Compaines claiming to use white carnauba are bleaching the wax to alter its color. It is also cheap, at roughly 5 dollars for 10lbs, when bought in bulk.

FWIW, I haven't done any research, but I do trust this guy. Like I said, he works for a major wax company (not sealant, but wax) and has helped forumlate carnauaba waxes for several pretty big companies world wide.

Just food for thought.

 

Sounds interesting. More marketing at its finest seems like.

 

I don't know, I have used some high end nuba and loved them. I love Souveran/PS21 and despite logic, will try and probably love Swissvax as well. From my experience, a lot of everything is hype, but is how you feel after you use it, and what it does for YOU that matters the most.

 

Yeah. Have to agree with you there Todd. The finished product and liking what it looks like has alot of appeal to it. I love Souvie too. I'm waiting on my Victoria's Concours. Should be here tuesday. I have no idea when i'll get to try it out either. Hopefully soon!

 

good stuff

 

Thanks for the story, really interesting.

 

Ty for shareing.

 

I've posted some info on Carnauba wax in a new thread as it's rather long (yes I know, very unusual for me.

Honest opinion or merely advertising? Commercialism brings with it concerns of honesty and true representation. In other words, it’s difficult to know what is true when someone is motivated by income, i.e. directly targeted at product sales, more so than an unbiased opinion

I would also strongly suggest that you verify any information that I or anyone else shares with you.

 

Interesting feed back, I personally prefer to use the high end products. One thing I've noticed about wax products from different price range is it's quality oooh but keep in mind I'm no chemist nor know much about wax just the little bit I read but I've used quite a number of them and I know what I'm looking for.

I first started using Souveran, I went from Mothers three step system and I thought I was achiving wicked results hahahaha oh those were the days. Well now that I know the true meaning of detailing finding a good quality wax took me quite some time. I've tried a few Zymol wax products, some cheap wax and so far I've got up to Vintage...and the one thing I noticed is the depth and shine each wax gives. Oh but I agree preperation is very important, I mean no point on putting Vintage on a vehicle that is full of swirls we all know that.

But having good preperation and using Vintage for example gives the vehicle that extra umph, makes that vehicle pop but the other benefit of using such a product is it's durability. Well I've noticed Vintage seems to last quite a bit longer compared to the other wax's I've used. Example I enjoy using the Victoria wax's and to be honest they are quite nice and will continue to use them but they don't last as long as Vintage but then again I don't think it's fair to compare Victoria to Vintage, not a fair comparison that's all.

Well but I agree with you Todd it comes down to personal taste, I've used Vintage and to be honest it left me wanting more. There is nothing wrong with Vintage but I just want more then Vintage so I steped up to Swissvax Divine and considering Zymol Royale...are they worth the money who knows but I can afford it and would love to add Royale to my collection :thumb:

 

Swissvax says 51% or 60% by volume right in their descriptions. I am pretty sure Zymol uses the same type of descriptions so I am guessing that means the other 40% are solvents, oils or other types of wax such as beeswax etc...

 

From what I was told it that 51 or 60 percent refers to the volume of wax, not the volume of the total product. Anything above 17 percent total volume (I believe this was the number I was told) would require solvents that are not VOC complient.

 

that is my understanding also. Tomorrow i may learn something to the contrary though.

 

Erin,

Did you find anything out that may contribute to this thread?

 

good information, very interesting

 

LOL, no i was referring to the possibility, or more correctly likely hood that i would learn something in the future that would add to it.

Along the lines. "tomorrow is a new day"

 

Carnauba wax is a vegetable wax (fat) obtained from the leaves of the Carnauba Palm, that has an affinity to water, the ability to retain oil and has excellent gloss properties making it applicable in a vast variety of industries. Carnauba is the hardest natural wax and has lustrous composition making it the leading choice for food coatings, pharmaceutical coatings and polishes. This (Copernicia prunifera) Arecaceae palm grows in the northern and north-eastern parts of Brazil along the riverbanks, valleys, and lagoons where the soil is dark and fertile. The tree needs very little water to grow, is very prolific and attains a height 40-50 feet after fifty years.

The natives in the surrounding area use the various products of the tree for many necessities in their lives; hence the name "Tree of Life." Of interest is the fact that only in northern Brazil does the Carnauba Palm produce wax.

Number one grade Carnauba varies from a very pale yellow (so called ‘white’), through a greenish brown (yellow). It is the world’s purest, hardest and most transparent natural wax repellent derived from the Brazilian palm Copernia Cerefera. This wax coats the leaves and is hydrophobic; it forms a barrier that is a natural deterrent from acid rain, airborne pollutants and acidic bird excrement.

Its colour is determined by the ages of the leaves when harvested, and ranges from pale yellow (new, unopened leaves) to a greenish brown (older leaves exposed to sun and weather).

There are various grades available (#1 Yellow and Yellow) the pale yellow wax (sometimes termed Ivory) has the highest clarity (very transparent) and is the highest grade of carnauba available, much sought after by concourse d’élégance entrants (See also Zymol website) A natural White Carnauba wax does not exist; this is just a marketing play on words to denote ‘purity’. In addition to colour, the wax is also graded according to area of origin—Parnahyba, Piaui, Ceara, and Bahai.

Percentage of wax content- most carnaubas advertised with 50% or more Carnauba wax content is truly advertising a weight, not a volume. 30% by volume is about 50% by weight is about the maximum content (approx 35% Carnauba by volume makes it almost impossible to add/remove) thats why you never can truly assess the amount of Carnauba in a manufactured wax unless the manufacturer specifically lists its content percentage by weight or volume. When making a comparison ensure you compare like with like i.e. % volume or % weight

#1 Yellow is actually an ivory colour, bleaching a wax is a very complicated and costly chemical process, going from an off-white to white would not be a viable proposition and is usually marketing misinformation. Calling an ivory coloured wax white is dubious at best

Information resource-
Relevant Material Data Sheet (MSDS) – http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Carnauba_wax-9923319
Zymol- (http://www.zymol.com/carnauba.htm)
Swissvax - SWISSVAX - the ultimate car care products hand-made in Switzerland
Wikipedia - Carnauba wax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Strahl & Pitsch - Carnauba Wax
Abstracts from articles related to Auto Appearance Chemicals – Dow Corning
The Chemistry and Technology of Waxes, by Albin H. Warth; Second Edition 1956

 

Togwt I always love reading your post :thumb: Sometimes I have to read them twice to make sure I understand all the great information :rollinglaugh: I appreciate you sharing and educating us!!!

 

hmm interesting. I have heard things simalar to your first post, wax does nothing and it is all about the oils. I had a chat with eShine about this once. I think Zymol and Swissvax use oils to soften the wax instead of solvents. I heard they cost $1500 a gallon or something insane like that! One funny thing is Vintage gives really good clarity (even with my shitty application method). I didn't know until last week that I was applying it very wrong, but it still has a nice gloss to it. It seems to have more glow to it than other waxes I have tried, but again this isn't very scientific, and I am not sure if this glow can be measured with any sort of insterment. A while back a vendor on Autopia gave me a beta on some 51% by volume wax. It was pretty hard to apply but it had amazing shine. It had terrible durability, but that is besides the fact.

 

And I thought I was the only one that needed to do that:006:

 

How were you doing it "wrong"?