Well, I've used quite a few leather conditioners over the years, but I never tried Leatherique. Followed the directions too a tee and was rewarded with really nice results. I know that most folks only use this on uncoated leather, but my wife's 05' Acura TL needed some serious help. Anyhow, I'm really happy with the results with one exception.....it stinks! Boy, after letting it cook for 8 hours in the hot sun the smell was nasty. There is no doubt this stuff works great and if they can somehow improve the smell I'd use it every time, but I think I'll just save it for the really bad cases. Mike
Hi Mike; There is no artificial fragrance in the Rejuvenator, and the base ingredients smell neutral and like natural leather. Because the Rejuvenator penetrates deep into the actual hide, even on "coated" leather, as it plumps the actual leather fibers, it will release any existing combinations of commercial products that are surface coatings and act to trap dirt, perspiration, and anything else within the coating that commercial products leave behind. All reinterate that all leather that is used as upholstery is surface coated. Even nubuck has a waxed finish and is not totally bare. There is no such thing as a cow with blue or red or burgandy skin. The hides are all a neutral tan color when the hairs are removed, so all colored leathers are coated with a surface that protects the actual hide, as even a grain of sand can wear a hole in the actual hide, and also to give the hide a fashionable finish. Back in horse and buggy days, the hides were coated with a lacquer paint, which they used up until the epa regulated the tanning industry in the 1980s. By 1990 everyone had switched to a water based finish, which Leatherique had been manufacturing since 1960. These finishes are "WATER RESISTANT" which means if you spill your coffee and clean it right away you can clean most of it up. NO FINISH ON LEATHER IS WATER PROOF!!!!! So if you leave your window down or sunroof open during rain, your leather will become drenched and harden. Remember in the olden days that was how they formed leather into armor and shields, by wetting it down and forming it to the warriors body. The point is that all leather will absorb the proteins and collagens in the Rejuvenator through the finish, and through the stitch holes and migrate laterally and people who tell you leather is sealed are spreading falsehoods. Leather is two stratas, the actual hide which must be kept nourished to maintain tensile strength, luxurious suppleness and prevent the hide from cracking and becoming dry. The top strata is the surface color, which can wear off from normal use. Jeans and cords are like 600 grit sand paper and can wear a hole in your bolsters and arm rests if you don't keep the surface color in tact. Your steering wheel is a great example of how coated leathers can wear. Steering wheels have an extra coating of protective finish on the already finished or coated leather. Perspiration and dirt are absorbed greedily into the dry leather, and combined with the uv rays of the sun a chemical reaction occurs that degrades the hide. All of us have seen this wear on steering wheels. So, regardless of what commercial surface dressing with it's intoxicating armoas or temporary shine you prefer, you are welcome to use them. Remember they are only a surface dressing that sits on top and traps dirt on the surface and into the pores of the lather. But for the sake of your forgotten hide, you should use Rejuvenator 2 to 3 times per year just to keep the actual foundation of the leather strong and supple. Follow this with Prestine Clean to actually get the hides clean occasionally so they can breathe and last the life of the car. It makes common sense that if you allow your leather to become dry, it is going to crack, degrade, and you'll be spending thousands to replace it. In a bad economy it is more logical to invest in a quality leather conditioner like Rejuvenator and ph correct clean like Prestine Clean that will actually do something for your hide and for your detailing dollar. Regards, George
Thank you for your very thoughtful and informative post George. You have a tremendously capable duo in Rejuvenator and Pristine Clean. As I mentioned above, I was very happy with the results with the one noted exception. I'm happy to report that after allowing the car to air out today the overwhelming odor has disappeared and the interior smells as it should....Clean! So, I can now say that I would not hesitate to use your product on a more frequent basis as it certainly does an incredible job. My wifes Acura TL never suffered from neglect, but rather from my overzealous use of commonly available leather specific products I've tried in the past. The leather became glossy and hard and had lost all of it's former suppleness. It is now back to feeling like nice leather should. Thank you again. Sincerely, Mike
Leather does not have a 'natuarl' smell. Any aroma that leather has is either artificially added (sometimes to order) or the smell of the chemicals used in the tanning process. Morrocan tanned leather smells of dung and urine as these are used for the tannig process there and this is why it aleays smells so bad. Not all leather is surface coated for the upholstery industry. Nubuck is not finished and some aniline leathers are used without any finish at all - we have samples in our workshop. However, most (but not all) auto leather is finished with a pigment coating and then a clear coat finish to give it a hard wearing surface. It is this surface that we are trying to preserve. 'Waxed nubuck' would have a wax 'type' finish but nubuck itself is completely unfinished. Nubucks and aniline leathers are harder to clean as they have little or no finish on the surface. Remember you can only 'clean' the surface of leather and not out of it. Dirt does not 'wick' to the surface of leather no matter what products are used. The hides are whatever colour the cow is when the hair is removed, black, white, mottled etc. When leather is tanned it is either chrome tanned (blue in colour) or veg tanned (brown in colour) - there are some white tanned ones as well but these are rare. Not all leathers are coated with a surface coating. Most leather is aniline dyed to begin with which turns it whatever colour the dye is. Some are then coated with pigment and/or fiinish depending on their use or the amount of damage that there is on the hide. This is correct. All finishes have to allow 'transpiration' - the flow of moisture back and forth otherwise it cannot be classed as leather. This gives leather its breathability. Leather cannot be totally sealed but the coatings used on the leather do not allow anything other than moisture to soak through them. Oils, waxes, collagens etc will not get through the coatings used on things such as auto leather unless they are already damaged. In auto leather we are never dealing with 'cleaning' the leather itself as this would be an impossibility we are simply dealing with the surface coating. Leather itself can be kept supple by the simple use of moisture from water. The fats and oils that are put into the leather during the tanning process are good for 30 years (check with any tanner) and do not 'dry' out of the leather so therefore do not need replacing. What does change is the moisture balance and this is what needs rectifying. Hope this helps
"This is correct. All finishes have to allow 'transpiration' - the flow of moisture back and forth otherwise it cannot be classed as leather. " Incorrect, the molecular structure of a skinned animal is what classifies a hide. Otherwise the new "green" artificial upholstery material could be classified as leather under this definition. "This gives leather its breathability. Leather cannot be totally sealed but the coatings used on the leather do not allow anything other than moisture to soak through them. " This is false, ask anyone whose interior has been destroyed by rain from an open window or sunroof, with their hides become drenced as they absorb the water, which is in great quantity than just "moisture" would also disagree with you. I would define "moisture" as simple perspiration. "Oils, waxes, collagens etc will not get through the coatings used on things such as auto leather unless they are already damaged. In auto leather we are never dealing with 'cleaning' the leather itself as this would be an impossibility we are simply dealing with the surface coating." Such an untrue statement. If water molecules can penetrate, so can refined oils, silicone, and collagens. Do you know how the actual upholstery is created??? It is not a solid piece of fabric. What about all the thousands of stich holes which are ports of entry for any liquid to be absorbed and migrate laterally under the water resistant finish? What about perforated leather used on many Porsches, MB, BMW and other cars? These are entry ports directly into the hide. I have seen silicone penetration up close and the only way to remove it from within the hide is to chemically break it down as it's function is to impregnate itself into the finish to harden and "protect" it. "Leather itself can be kept supple by the simple use of moisture from water. The fats and oils that are put into the leather during the tanning process are good for 30 years (check with any tanner) and do not 'dry' out of the leather so therefore do not need replacing. What does change is the moisture balance and this is what needs rectifying. " This is totally untue, too much water will harden leather. immersion in water is how armor was manufactured for hundreds of years. Leather does not need water molecules within the hide. Since you advocate just cleaning the finished surface, you should not spread false statements about the actual hide. You should also clearly define "moisture balance" and where you are talking about needing it. Too many of us actual car owners have seen our stitching rot from products that contained too much "moisture" which I presume is water by your definition. First you intelligenty quote different tanning process and different types of leather, then to make a blanket statement that all leather will stay supple for exactly 30 years, which is puzzeling and false. I have seen the top of the back seat in Jags and BMW's that are just 3 years old become so dry from exposure of the sun through the slanty rear windows that the leather would crumble and disintegrate. And the area just a few inches under the sun exposed area is still fine. Also as I'm sure you're aware different manufacturers split their hides to different thicknesses . Any guy with a brain will know that different cars due to the automotive design of the seat, window placement, and even the pants material they wear to get in and out of their car will affect the wear of the seat. The vador style seat in BMW's will wear faster due to the style of the seat than the more bench type seat of a 7 series BMW and we all know that. The low slung seats of my Ferrari abrad on the bolster much faster than the bench seats of my Rolls Royce just because of the way you are required to bend and fold to get into a sports car as opposed to a sedan. It is far more logical to use a superb quality, time tested preventative maintnenace like Leatherique Rejuvenator a few times a year to keep your actual hides nourished and supple than to let them degrade, dry, and crack. We all know that how you clean the surface is individual preference and that for the last several years tanners have been using a water based finish, and the gentleman who started this thread spoke about the mixed variety of "commercial stuff" on his seats that were making them glossy and hard and you are also entitled to you opinion of surface cleaning. But you speak like the upholstery finish is a solid profolactic that nothing can penetrate to reach the actual hide, which is the back bone of the leather! Why have leather in your life if you can't really feel the luxurious "hand" of the hide? You are implying that the actual leather makes no difference, that all you feel is the surface coating? Then why not just use vinyl? You speak like you do not have any real knowledge of cars and the way they wear, different environmental conditions or wear conditions that cause them to becom dry, or the actual different types of leather used in real cars. I have owned and worked on just about every car manufactured, and speak from over 50 years of experience and actual knowledge of everything from the finest classic show cars, daily drivers, and cars built for racing. Regards, George
[Incorrect, the molecular structure of a skinned animal is what classifies a hide.] Interesting, I’ve never heard of this definition before (that doesn’t make it incorrect) but I thought that the tanning process altered its structure. Just like the old armour you cited, soaking in water to remove oils, fats, etc to produce rawhide [ If water molecules can penetrate, so can refined oils, silicone, and collagens.] Wouldn’t the differing sizes of molecules (water being the smallest) make a difference to what can and cannot permeate the polyurethane covering? [Too many of us actual car owners have seen our stitching rot from products that contained too much "moisture" which I presume is water by your definition.] The older European vehicle I owned have natural leather ( the market sector both Leatherequi and Connolly were originally formulated ) upholstery and treated cotton type material used for stitching, and I’ve found its abrasive dirt, etc that causes the problem, much more so than moisture, modern ‘leather’ upholstery stitching is a nylon, which is more resistant (in covered ‘leather’ this is also further protected). We are fortunate to have two leather specialists (ITT and Leatherequi) on this forum, albeit with differing views, to dismiss the misinformation and myth surrounding the subject of automotive leather care.
Hi togwit; I have read your informative posts in other places as well. Yes, I'm an old British car enthusiast very familiar with the Connolly used on RR, Bentley, Jag, Ferrari, Alfa which it's true are among our specialty. I'm presently restoring two mid 80's Porsches. The hides are only 25 years old, but are already hard as bricks, cracking and splitting, warping, and shrinking so badly the stithing is pulling apart. Do you think I can contact Porsche's leather manufacturer and complain that the guaranteed 30 year flexibility of the leather as mentioned by Judy is not up yet and they would owe me a new interior? The molecules in the Rejuvenator are attracted to the protein receptors in the existing hide as the hide is very spongy and fibrous, so it is able to penetrate through the finish, and also through the stitch holes and the fibers share the nourishing molecules and pass them on laterally under the finish. It will take several coats, but I've been able to restore cardboard hard leather to healthy suppleness. Cracked, faded surface need to be prepped and redyed. I feel that is what we're talking about, the care of the actual hide. I understand that the commercial companies have their own agenda on cleaning the water based surface. But not all of us have brand new cars with perfect leather. Alot of us love the challenge of restoring an old classic, or want our newer cars to have healthy hides, not just shiney, fragrant finishes. I feel we can amicably address both issues, the actual hide and the surface finish, as there are two stratas to what we call a leather upholstery. Jon, (togwt) could email me at LRPLTDSC@bellsouth.net? Thank you, George
I second that big time Without being an expert in any way, I saved a couch in natural leather and have kept aniline leather in superb condition with Rejuvenator Oil. This product is simply amazing...
[Jon, (togwt) could email me at LRPLTDSC@bellsouth.net? Thank you, George ] E-mail sent I always keep an open mind and verify any information that anyone shares with me, even after detailing for five decades there is always something new to learn. Healthy debate isn't a problem; this should be the main purpose of a detailing forum as there is always an opposing and often equally valid response, which should be encouraged.
It is always difficult replying to threads on forums when things are quoted out of context and used to belittle the informer. For everyones information I am a leather consultant working with the cleaning, furniture and detailing industries with over 20 years experience, the last 10 being devoted specifically to leather which is all I deal with on a daily basis. My Technical Director is world renowned as an instructor in leather care, leather repair and restoration and has taught delegates from all over the world every month for the last 15 years. We teach on the construction of leather and know and understand the finishing process used to create the hundreds of types on the market. The factory that supplies our products have been producing leather care and restoration products since 1938 and have at times supplied most of the giants in the industry. We have access to tanners, leather technologists, scientists and the cleaning industry with whom we regularly speak to keep up to date. We are members of the NCCA (National Carpet Cleaners Association) and the SLTC (Society of Leather Technologists and Chemists) and have presented papers at a number of conferences. It is difficult to condense our full training into brief snippets of information but for those of you who are interested here are a few of the basic principles. Leather is the tanned skin/hide of any animal (fish, elephant, frog, cow etc.). Once the skin/hide has been through the tanning process it can be called leather but is in a rather unuseable state and if not kept wet dries out to a stiff board like sheet. All 'natural' oils and fats are removed from the skin during the tanning process. At this stage the leather is put through the retanning process where fat liquors are introduced and the correct moisture level is also achieved. These 2 combined give the leather its flexibility and suppleness. The fat liqours are good in the leather for about 20 - 30 years (not an exact length of time) and do not migrate from the leather during that time (except under some very rare circumsatnces which is then treated in a specific manner to resatabilise it). What does alter in the leather is the 'moisture' content and when tanners speak about 'conditioning' leather this is what they are referring to (not the replacement of oils and waxes). It is important therefore that leather is kept correctly hydrated with moisture to allow the leather to remain flexible and supple. This can be done with water based products and there is no reason or neccessity to use oils and wax based products to 'condition' or 'feed' the leather. This is particualrly true of pigment coated leathers (as in cars) that cannot absorb oils and waxes through their top finish anyway. As with anything in leather it is a balance that is needed. Oversoaking with water will result in the fibres becoming distorted and then when they are dried will not shrink back into their previous state or position and so become hard and brittle. Once leather has been through the retanning or fat liquoring process they move on to the finishing stage - this is determined by the quality of the hide. There is a strange anomoly in the leather industry that the more you do to a hide the less it costs. Hides with little damage are used for top level upholstery and very little may be done to finish the leather so producing aniline and other full grain leathers. Hides with a lot of damage (insect bites, barbed wire damage, scar tissue etc.) are usually buffed to remove this damage and then used for pigment coated leathers. These days split leathers (leather is split 2 or 3 times during the tanning process) are also used by bonding finishes to the leather. It is the thickness of the finished coating on leather that detemines whether it can be classed as leather or not If the leather has a surface coating, the mean thickness of this surface layer, however applied has to be 0.15mm or less (BS 2780:1983) So leather is leather and is basically the same product from whatever it is produced. It is the surface coatings that we are dealing with when we are cleaning and restoring and not the leather itself. Some leathers have very little surface coating and are very porous (to moisture and oils) but in these cases we would be trying to prevent the absorption of oils into the leather as they can cause an inbalance which would then have to be rectified. Body oils can also cause many problems with leather of this type leaving unsightly patches which are expensive to fix. Why then would we want to add more oils to the leather? Pigment coated leather (as in most cars) needs to be kept clean. It is dirt and body oils together with abrassion that break down the pigment coating and then will begin to deteriorate the leather itself so it is crucial to stop this from happening - this can be done with protectors and regular cleaning. If oils are used on pigment coated leather (these have a layer of pigment - paint- and a clear coat finish) they cannot be absorbed into the leather the same way that moisture can and so sit on the surface and will only serve to attract more dirt so having a detrimental affect. The furniture industry see a far more varied array of finishes than the car market so provide many more challenges to the leather specialist to solve and we are constantly updating techniques and products to suit an ever changing market. Hope this helps Judyb
I totally agree with JudyB's post above Automotive leather upholstery has a duel or multi-level finish. Natural leather has a water-based pigmentation applied to the hide to provide an even colour. Covered leather has a further layer of polyurethane applied to provide protection from wear when getting in and out of the vehicle. The most fundamental question to be answered before you clean or care for leather is to establish the type of leather used in the vehicle and / or finish applied (natural, pigmented, vinyl, urethane coated, and etc) as the methodologies are very specific for each type of leather / finish applied. Always t remember you are dealing with the finished coating on the leather and not with the leather hide itself Using quality dedicated leather products (ones tested within the leather industry) are far more economical as these will always prolong the life of your leather and the need for corrective work won’t be necessary Automotive leather care is a subject surrounded with misinformation and myth. Products such as leather (Saddle) soaps, oil-based Conditioners, Neat-foot oil, and Hide Food still prevail as top sellers, albeit most are made for equestrian tack. These are very different leathers with drastically differing care requirements. The exact reason for this type of misapplication is unclear. It’s possible that there is an association with old world quality (i.e. European automobiles with leather upholstery and real burl wood interiors) with these types of products, despite the fact that the automotive industry has been using water-based polyurethane covered pigmented leather for many years. As materials and production methods that are used change; we need to adapt our product usage and application methodologies to change with them An extract from "Automotive Leather Upholstery Care / Maintenance ", one of a series of unbiased Detailing Technical Papers, a library of educational materials that has become the #1 reference for car care on the Internet Chances are you'll learn something about detailing if you read any of these; although these articles will not improve your detailing skills, lead to a successful business or change your life. Applying what you learn from it, however, will. That's where your commitment comes in - you need to make a commitment to yourself right now that you will take action on what you learn. © TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2010, all rights reserved
For the two of you who work in the leather care industry, as well as everyone else: this thread is a GREAT illustration of a situation we detailers often find ourselves in. There's plenty of conflicting information available on how best to care for leather. In this thread we have to known experts, who both work in the leather industry, posting largely contradictory information. All of which sounds well reasoned to someone like me. So, often, we're left to guess what's best for leather. My friends all know I'm a detailer. So they ask me lots of questions. As do my detailing customers. When they ask me about leather care - and a lot of them d - I don't know how to best answer their questions. I can't very well say "there's two schools of thought, and here's this first one, and here's this second one, and I'll leave it up to you to decide which is the 'correct' one." That just leaves people even more confused. And we can't look to our detailing products suppliers, either. For example, Detailer's Domain sells Leatherique. They also sell 1Z, Leather Masters, and others. What's the right one? Do I need more than one? Do I need half a dozen? :shead: Anyway, that's mostly just me venting. I appreciate everyone contributing to this thread and keeping the conversation civil. Kudos.
This is why trainig is so important. Most of the retailers and suppliers (particularly those that supply multiple brands) have little or no knowledge of leather or its properties and would not be able to answer technical questions when asked. It is really up to you to get some good quality training and then from that you will be able to determine what is right and wrong and who is simply trying to push a product. Products are put onto the market with much sales jargon often relying on terminology dating from when leather was tanned very differently from how it is now or using the same ideas as equestrian leather which is, as has been said, very different, thus using terms such as 'feeding' and 'conditioning' which can be very misleading. Leather is dead it cannot be fed!!!!!!! We see misleading information all the time on the internet and often repair the damage done by innappropriate products and methods - it is a shame but one of the problems with the internet that there is so much information. People also often say that leather should be treated like skin which again is very misleading. Leather used to be skin but is now a highly processed product and cannot in any way be treated the same as living flesh. We train a lot of people from the cleaning industry as well as leather repair specialists and retailers and detailers. All detailers should be fully trained so they know what they are dealing with and why and how products work. Leather care is fairly simple and straight forward once you know what you are dealing with and does not require complex products or methods. By the way our Technical Director used to live at Chapel Hill and taught around the Raleigh/Durham area when he lived in the USA. Hope this helps
Commercialism brings with it concerns of true representation. In other words, it’s difficult to know what is true when someone is motivated by income, i.e. directly targeted at product sales, more so than an unbiased opinion. Everyone's entitled to their opinion; but the most respected are based on ‘knowledge and extensive experience’. It comes down to finding someone whose opinion you trust and following their advice. That having been said I would strongly suggest that you verify any information that I or anyone else shares with you.
[This can be done with water based products and there is no reason or neccessity to use oils and wax based products to 'condition' or 'feed' the leather. This is particualrly true of pigment coated leathers (as in cars) that cannot absorb oils and waxes through their top finish anyway. As with anything in leather it is a balance that is needed. Oversoaking with water will result in the fibres becoming distorted and then when they are dried will not shrink back into their previous state or position and so become hard and brittle.] JudyB d) Fat liquoring All cowhides are naturally oily, unfortunately, these natural oils are stripped away in the tanning process (tanning is a process using a water vat and chromium salts to preserve hides and prepare them to absorb dyes) and some equivalent oils must be re-introduced after tanning. This step, the replacement of oils, is called fat liquoring. [Fat liquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it. However, along with the fat liquor, the other critical factor is moisture. Any leather is going to lose its moisture in a hot car. Although leather seems dry, it is not. Of course too much moisture quickly leads to mould and mildew problems, so soaking it down is not reasonable. Ideally, exposure to humid atmosphere will help balance the effect of over drying on hot days. Leather is very dynamic with respect to moisture content, meaning moisture comes and goes easily under normal circumstances....] American Leather Chemists Association An extract from the “Leather Tanning Process “one of a series of unbiased Detailing Technical Papers, a library of educational materials that has become the #1 reference for car care on the Internet Chances are you'll learn something about detailing if you read any of these; although these articles will not improve your detailing skills, lead to a successful business or change your life. Applying what you learn from it, however, will. That's where your commitment comes in - you need to make a commitment to yourself right now that you will take action on what you learn. © TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2010, all rights reserved
Damn, I'm agreeing with Judy and Jon. I think Judy made the best case and as far as anybody is concerned, I've never, NEVER, seen any leather product actually do what they claimed. Therefore, all I can do is keep it clean and try not to add anything that would make it wear out faster.
If I wanted to get trained with leather Judy what can I read to become adequately informed to carry out my detailing? So much different information on leather it's hard to start somewhere. For a complete newb like myself it's whole another world.
