Hi, Can you use a paint cleaner / should you use a paint cleaner before you wax ie Swissvax, Zymol etc., if so can you use any cleaner with any wax? Thanks Guys, Bob:shead:
Yes you can and it is an optional step. The paint cleaner will remove your current lsp (wax/sealant/glaze) and it can also enhance the look by adding oils. You can use any paint cleaner you like. Using Swissvax paint cleaner before your Swissvax wax is supposed to help with bonding and extend the durability of the wax. I've used Swissvax waxes with and without the paintcleaner and I did notice a bit of a difference, with more gloss and shine when using the paintcleaner. I really did not notice any difference in durability, but durability is affected by a lot of environmental conditions.
EDIT: I'm posting this with the assumption that we're talking about a "full detail" of a vehicle, from wash, to clay, to polish, and then to LSP. "In-between" details that include the application of new LSP might be a different matter. I have a question about these paint cleaners, and I don't mean this as a post where I'm "calling out" people who use them. I really would like to learn more about how they're supposed to work. Presumably, you've washed, clayed, and polished - possibly a few different times - the paint before you get to this step. How much "more clean" is the paint really going to get as a result of using a pre-wax cleanser? I've seen some of them that claim to "nourish" the paint, with "essential oils" or some such thing. First of all, I'm not a chemist, but I don't understand how automotive paint can actually "absorb" much of anything. Second, it's a mystery to me how having additional oils (or whatever) sitting on top of a painted surface helps a wax bond to said surface. Don't we all go through exhaustive steps, before applying LSP, to make sure that the paint is as clean as possible? Back in the day, I used to use Zymol HD-Cleanse. I never did figure out what it actually did, but Zymol said I was "supposed to," so I followed their directions. I never noticed any difference, and finally, I abandoned the stuff. The only difference I noticed was that my detail was a whole lot less painful when I didn't have to use that stuff. I'm all for using the best products, and the best methodologies, but this whole notion of paint "cleansers" is one I've long been skeptical of. I haven't used one in a long, long time. Great thread; I'm subscribing to this one.
As Karl mentioned, the point behind paintwork cleansers is to remove all oils etc from the paint to make sure the wax can adhere properly to a perfectly clean surface. As well as Karl, I am not a chemist so do not understand how an oily product like DODO Lime Prime can promote adhesion. Maybe Dom can chime in here. I do use Werkstat prime products as not only do they clean the paint, but also add a base layer of sealant as well. I have used the P21S as well and noticed it does fill/remove very light marring. On darker colours, the difference is quite noticeable. For ease of use, although pricey, you cant beat RaceGlaze. Put it on like a sealant, let it dry and wipe off. Dead easy.
Great thread, I have been thinking about this for some time too. Despite trying using wax after IPA wipe down, wax over SRP and wax right over m205, I can't conclude anything base on my observation. I know there must be a difference as the texture changes differently. However, durability seems to be on par. Unfortunately it was applied on different cars so like what detaildoc mentioned, durability has been affected by environmental conditions...
very nice thread ... I never using pre-wax cleanser ... I just use AIO before LSP ... so far so good ... however, its good to know what is benefits from pre-wax cleanser though ... is it really bring some affect to the paint after lsp ??? thanks for all of you been sharing then ...
Try to take a stab at it: 1. Use a pre-wax cleaner sometimes if I am not polishing, reason-> Clean the surface of old wax and oxidation from the surface. If I am polishing, then no I do not use it as surface is clean and use a liquid surface prep solution to get rid of polishing oils. 2. The whole talk of feeding the paint is old school. Single stage paint could technical absorb stuff, thus people still have this in there mind and everyone like to gears it feeds the paint. Talking to my dad, Chem E for a paint company, said that clear is in fact could be both porous and non-pours depending on the clear coat and the surface it is on. But, saying that most if not all OEM baked on finishing are non-pours thus will not absorb anything. 3. Oils to help bonding, well I think this is were marketing from #2 above comes into play and I think it mainly deals with well like dissolves like right? So certain kind of "oils" could in fact clean the surface of "bad" oils that can hurt bonding but would leave behind oils that the wax could then dissolve as well and still get a good bond. Why do you use flux when welding, or why do use coating on surfaces sometimes that within a few secs come off anyways from bonding methods? Well it comes down to if you put something down to help further slow down contamination from bonding to the surface and the coating you are adding to the surface is able to dissolve and comparable with this coating then you are good. Wax's have oils in them to help spread, no secret there, well those oils could "dissolve" the glaze oils and then you have a good bond, now think of sealants it is a no-no to use glaze that are oil based on those correct? Well sealants do not have the same chemical make up of wax's thus no oils, a sealants oils could not be comparable with glazing oils for a nuba wax and would thus hinder the bond between the paint surface and LSP film layer. The bond between film layer and paint surface is rather weak, bond within the film layer could be stronger than bonding between surface and lsp layer. If you could get more percentage of the film layer to bond to the surface of the paint then the stronger the overall LSP layer bond is. Again, no expert but just thinking of it and have thought about it before and this is what I have come up with....now its time for someone to take my theory and shred it into bits haha.
For years I've been using the following method: Wash, Clay, Paint Cleanser, and Wax. You notice a huge difference in the look and texture of the paint after the paint cleanser. I've used Zymol HD and now using SV Cleaner Fluid. I like the CF much better as it has a longer drying time and the overall look is much more vibrant than HD. Even if I do paint correction, if I'm applying a Carnauba, I'll use a paint cleanser. If using a sealant, I'll just go straight to it after correction. From my experience, been detailing since 1995, using paint cleaners/cleansers make a difference. The surface most often feels smoother and silkier than polishing alone...probably the oils. I always noticed that paint cleaners muted the high-gloss look after polishing and made the paint have a subtle glow...that's the look I'm after on the cars I detail. That's personal preference so ultimately that's what it comes down to.
Thanks for your imput. Do you use the Swissvax CF with any brand wax, or just when you use Swissvax? bob
Automotive paints utilizing modern paint technology using water-based high solid/low solvent urethane that for environmental reasons (low volatile organic compounds (VOC) produce a much softer and more porous finish; its molecules are not tightly linked together as t has a chain-link type structure, which makes it more porous than acrylic or oil based high solvent content paint systems. Solvent-based paints (which still constitutes the majority of what is still being used, despite VOC regulations) is not as absorbent as water-based paint. Single stage paint will absorb oil hence the ‘feed the paint with oils’ marketing sometimes used even today (Zymol) Both organic and non-organic waxes contain polymers to help, among other things, form a molecular bond with the paint surface. Certain oils will hinder this polymer/paint bond, not help. Paint Cleaners There are two distinct type; Abrasive and Chemical, i.e. a) Zaino Z-PC Fusion Dual Action Paint Cleaner - a water-based formula with tri-particulate, diminishing abrasive system (no fillers or oils) that removes minor scratches, swirls, oxidation, wax build-up and other blemishes b) The P21S gloss-enhancing chemical cleanser that contains fillers (Kaolin or China clay) will remove old wax, light swirls and oxidation. P21S Paintwork Cleanse goes on by hand or with an orbital polisher. (Chemical solvents) paint cleaners are good to use if you want to prep the paint surface prior to applying a wax (without polishing). My preference would be to use an IPA or DuPont’s PrepSol as they don’t leave any (silicone / mineral ) oils or etc behind, as these can cause problems when polishing if they are not removed
I was reading up on Vertuabond over at DW as there's not much info on the product here. A few people said they noticed that some of their beauty waxes lasted a large portion of the winter, and they have reason to suspect that it was due to the bonding agents in Vertuabond. I can't wait to try it.
Take an older white car and hit it with DG 501 and a white pad and watch what colour the pad changes to...it's disgusting. The crap 501 pulls out of paint is amazing....and of course that's after claying. My method is compound if needed, light polish, 501, 601/111. It seems bulletproof.
While I know Clear Cote Red Moose Machine Glaze is generally not considered a paint cleaner, does it have any paint cleaning ability? In other words, will it do a decent job removing old LSP and prepping the surface for new wax?
Yes, I use a paint cleaner, and really love it. My favorite paint cleaner is Dodo Juice Lime Prime Lite...haven't tried Raceglaze yet...
Chemical Guy’s Vertua-Bond 408 is bonding agent (accelerants) gloss enhancer (oils) paint cleaner (mild abrasive). I haven't tested it as yet, said to be a decent product (my pref is Polycharger for this type of product)
Great thread guys ...:headbang: I have P21S paint cleanser, but I haven't used it yet. What uber pad do you guys recommend? Uber black or uber blue? Thanks in advance, G
Match the foam pad to the 'grit' of the surface scratches your trying to remove. If your not sure of the 'grit' number use the least abrasive foam first and if that doesn't remove the scratches use a more abrasive foam and etc until the scratches are removed Foam Pad Dependency All abrasive polishes are ‘foam pad and applied pressure dependant’ as far as their paint correction abilities are concerned. If we consider the Lake County (LC) White foam (50 PPI) polishing pad as the baseline; any polish used will derive help from the abrasive abilities of the foam. Then consider the LC Blue (70 PPI) finishing pad has no abrasive ability and will contribute nothing to the cutting capability of a polish. What is derived from this is that a polishes abrasive ability can be ‘fine tuned’ by using different combinations (abrasiveness) of polish and foam (the same thing is true of wool pads) and of course differing the amount of downward pressure (10-15 Lbs is the usual range) applied will also have an effect on the abrasives capability Different pad / product combinations a) Base pad / product (least abrasive pad / product) if this combination does not provide the desired results, increase the aggressiveness of the technique or product selection. b) Step-up 1 - using the same pad with a more abrasive product c) Step-up II – use a less abrasive pad and the same product as used in step-up I d) Step-up III- using the same pad with a more abrasive product Let me know if I can be of further assistance.
