I must admit that I'm a little shame to ask :shead: I have look and look everywhere on aims to try to understand exactly what is this new method about, can any of you guys explain to me in a simpler way how this method really works, if you guys have the answer in another thread by all means please direct me there. Thanks in advance :worship2:
I don't think it all that new. I've never attempted or really even given it any real attention it but, seems to me it involves a whole lot of paint removal by means of loading up a pad with heavy compound and laying heavy pressure on the machine. I for one am not a fan of removing more than 2 microns of paint from a finish. Maybe I'm just an old timer??? Andy
Where can you find the method? I have not been able to read the entire thing. From the rumors that went around before anything was "official" it just sounded like what most of us guys have been doing for years. But I think there is more to it and I'd like to read on it.
Disclaimer- I am in no way an expert or an authority on this method and this is just my opinion. I have read quite a few threads on the KBM on multiple forums. From what I have read, he is still in the process of editing the paper and may be a little hesitant to release something that goes against the manufactures directions. It also seems to be geared toward getting heavy correction with the PC. I chose to try it on the Makita. I believe the method is different than the "old way" because you don't get the heavy sling all over the place. It concentrates the product in the area you are working on. I tried it for the first time on a vehicle that after 3 steps with wool and SIP (I didn't have anything heavier at the time) there were still severe RIDS and some swirls left. Hardest paint I've ever worked on. I used an orange 3M pad that I had primed with 105. I laid a bead down, ran the speed up to 1200 to 1500 rpms, with moderate to heavy pressure, and then made as many passes as I could until it started to dry up. Once that happened, I spritzed the pad with distilled water to "reactivate" the polish and continued on with lighter pressure until it started to dry again. I was leery of trying this because it is not a diminishing polish but the results were nothing short of amazing. One pass and everything was gone except for a few deep RIDS. The finish looked LSP ready although there was some fine holograming left that Powerfinish took care of. Oh yeah, I did try to use it as I would any other polish, but it didn't cut as quick or nearly as well. Again this is only my take and opinion on this method and Kevin if you read this and I hacked up your process, I apologize. Feel free to correct any part of my method.
It's my understanding that he's in the process of writing a very detailed paper about his method. It will include detailed information as well as charts and illustrations. There used a short version of it floating around on one of the other sites but I can't seem to find it now. As of now, there is no estimated time of release, that I know of.
Hi Guys- I have written about this method to clear up some confusion about this process (post 44): http://www.detailingbliss.com/forum/f37/kevin-brown-method-8416-5.html#post160091 The "method" itself is not super-tricky or top-secret in any manner. That being said, a guy will need to play around a bit with added pressure, speed settings, and pads to achieve the results we are all hoping for. I am adding large sections of information to the paper, none of which is related to M105/M205/M86 specifically. Nope- all the new stuff is about the random orbital. My hope is that this compilation of information will help guys and gals to better understand how a change in "X" (speed, pad type or size, backing plates, etc.) affects "Y" (defect removal, paint leveling, micro-marring, etc.). If a paint polishing enthusiast reads this paper thoroughly, they should have a very good understanding of the random orbital, how to outfit it to achieve a targeted result. Should problems arise, the user will be better prepared to diagnose problems and resolve them with an educated approach. I just spent about 20 hours on ONE diagram! A Photoshop or Illustrator expert would look at it and likely say, "What took so long!?", but I am not a graphics expert, and wording things properly is quite the task. For what it's worth... If a defect is removed slowly or quickly, the same amount of paint is removed. So, if there is some concern about removing too much paint and you know that one system removes paint quicker than another.... :graduation: polish for a shorter period of time!
Hello Mr. Brown, I certainly appreciate that you came to this thread to shine some light regarding your system, Thank you for taking the time to do so, As you can imagine now I have even more questions. Have you or anyone close to you done a video using your system? I think that if I see the steps one by one visually I will get all the answers and then some. From the pad priming to the final step that would be great. I have a PC, The rotary and the Flex (One that will be leaving my stable very soon unless they sell an external cooler for it, impressive how the Internet can mislead the consumer. So I will stick with the old faithful PC) I have numerous products (I will not mention names to avoid any trouble as a good forum citizen :thumb I have all kinds of foam pads and today I picked up an old trunk lid so I'm basically set, minus my detailed directions. I'm not as talented at some of you so please bare with my poor understanding capabilities.
No video that I have seen showing the "method". I have not made one, either. There was another thread on another forum asking in-depth questions so I copied and pasted it: Kevin Brown Method - Cliff Note version I've spent much time both here and at Meguiar's Online researching KBM. Before I turn loose on my black Mercedes with ceramaclear, I want to make sure I'm on the right page. I'll be using DA PC7424XP for correction and polishing, have both LC backing plates & assortment of both 4" & 5.5" LC pads. Both M105 & M205 are DA versions. I understand the majority of theory for using the product as follows: 1) lightly prime pads. 2) couple three dots of product. 3) don't spread and then work, just work it in approx. 2'x2' sections, moving DA slowly on paint. 4) cut is pressure dependent - overlap work by a bunch. 5) lower DA speads to begin with higher pressure exerted on pad. 6) reduce pressure and increase speads as area is worked. 7) clean pads more often rather than less. 8) change to new pads when "on the fly" cleaning doesn't clean well enough. Anyone with specifics as to what to look for to define "not well enough"? 9) final polishing step with M205/black or blue pads at lower speeds and very slow movement. Feel free to add anything I've missed. Biggest confusion to me is when to change to new pads vs. cleaning current ones and whether pads can be spritzed with Final Inspection to extend working time or not. Compromise requires changing pads more often and/or micro maring? Is this machine dependent (DA vs. rotary)? Consider in this case car is solid black (Mercedes paint code C040 - no flake) FYI - car is not a daily driver and is garaged. LSP is Souveran/FK425. I have 3M ultrafina as a final polish step if need be, hoping need won't be. Thanks in advance. MY RESPONSES ARE IN GREEN: Re: Kevin Brown Method - Cliff Note version May I chime in here? I will address your points in segments. Originally Posted by billium I'll be using DA PC7424XP for correction and polishing, have both LC backing plates & assortment of both 4" & 5.5" LC pads. Both M105 & M205 are DA versions. I understand the majority of theory for using the product as follows: Got it. Originally Posted by billium 1) lightly prime pads. Not exactly... check out this post. A look into Pad Priming - The Kevin Brown Method - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online Your pad should be primed just like Chris shows in this post. Believe it or not, there are about 8-10 reasons/dynamics occurring when you thoroughly prime the pad. Do not overlook the importance of this step. Originally Posted by billium 2) couple or three dots of product. Well, if you are using a tiny pad, perhaps yes. Otherwise, use a normal amount. That is a generalization, but most guys apply an "X" or a "circle" pattern of liquid to the pad. This is a sufficient amount for M105, too. Just don't apply it in a thick bead. Originally Posted by billium 3) don't spread and then work, just work it in approx. 2'x2' sections, moving DA slowly on paint. Correct. Place the machine on the paint, turn the machine on, and work a small area, moving the machine slow but deliberate. As for the size you should cover, I've always done an area about 4-6 square feet, or whatever I could comfortably cover with an arm's swing of the machine. Of course, if you are working on a heavily damaged section of paint, you will be wise to shrink your work area. Originally Posted by billium 4) cut is pressure dependent - overlap work by a bunch. Hmmm... Not exactly, but your statement is correct to a degree. Certainly, pressure does typically increase cut, but not necessarily because of the added force. The correct pressure amount depends on many factors, and it is something that you will learn by doing. I would say that you should handle the machine using a FIRM grasp, with a goal of placing EQUAL pressure across the pad face as it contact the panel. Overlapping "by a bunch" is not necessary- perhaps an inch or so to ensure you do not miss anything. M105 has a fairly short working cycle so overlapping an area than has already been polished just polishes paint that does not need it, makes the job longer, removes more paint, and further loads the buffing pad with abraded paint residue). If you are using a "gentle" pad, one that is soft or thick; or a large in diameter pad; or a machine that features a small stroke (your machine does not fall into this category), you will have to add downward pressure in order to accurately transfer the machine's movements. Conversely, if you are using an "aggressive" pad, or one that is short, firm, or small in diameter; or a machine that touts a large stroke, you may not need to increase pressure at all. The thing is, when you are using the pad in a flat manner (you are not tilting the machine), then you should strive to deliver consistent pressure across the pad. This will ensure that the pad will contour to the panel being worked on (read the additional post at the end of these segmented answers). Originally Posted by billium 5) lower DA speeds to begin with, higher pressure exerted on pad. The speed you should use depends upon what you are trying to accomplish. Ideally, the slowest speed you can use is always best. In the real world, slow speed does not always deliver a satisfactory result, so quite often it is necessary to run the machine at a maximum speed setting. For heavy defect removal, high speed is usually required. Keep on mind that you will likely remove heavy defects more efficiently, but the trade-off will be a creation of fine micromarring. This type of defect can be easily removed by re-polishing the area with a finer polish, or by cleaning the pad, dropping the speed, and using a firm but normal to moderate amount of pressure (read the additional post at the end of these segmented answers). Originally Posted by billium 6) reduce pressure and increase speeds as area is worked. No. Completely incorrect. In general, the application cycle should be short and consistent in terms of applied pressure and speed. The only caveat to this is when the machine is used under heavy pressure for small bursts of time. Originally Posted by billium 7) clean pads more often rather than less. YES! Originally Posted by billium 8) change to new pads when "on the fly" cleaning doesn't clean well enough. Anyone with specifics as to what to look for to define "not well enough"? Sure. If you see clumps of abrasive that do not detach after cleaning, change the pad. If the pad becomes saturated with moisture or an excess of goop fills the pore structure of the pad and will not clean away, change the pad. If you see a lot of rubber marking (from hitting rubber window trim or a similar material), change the pad. If you run the pad across a lot of metal trim (stainless steel or anodized aluminum, or even chrome), change the pad. If you see a lot of dirt marks on the pad (usually pulled out of the thin gaps between body panels, if the car was not properly cleaned), change the pad. If you are working on a large vehicle, change the pad at least halfway through the job. Keep in mind that if we were mostly polishing single stage paints versus clear coated paints, we would likely be changing our pads more often because it would be easy to see how much paint residue accumulates as we polish. Since we are polishing clear paint, we do not get the benefit of this type of visual inspection. Originally Posted by billium 9) final polishing step with M205/black or blue pads at lower speeds and very slow movement. Yes. Slow speed, slow movement, and firm pressure throughout the polishing process. Make sure that the pad is able to rotate (even if it rotates once per second). Originally Posted by billium Biggest confusion to me is when to change to new pads vs. cleaning current ones and whether pads can be spritzed with Final Inspection to extend working time or not. Already addressed the cleaning issue. Do NOT spritz the pad when using a random orbital. It is OKAY to spritz when using a rotary, but the process is different than the method outlined in this post.
Mr. Browm Thank you very much for taking the time to post all of that information, I will give this a try during the weekend and will monitor the progress, I have a little concern about the part to "prime the pad". My concern is that I don't do that portion correctly but I will try my best to follow all the guidelines that you have provided. The one thing I like to understand is how can I "compare' your system vs the 'conventional system"? What milestones I can take in consideration to have an honest comparison, time, number of pads or ??? I think that I'm an excellent candidate to try this system since this is completely new to me. I will post the pictures for your evaluation to ensure that I did it correctly. My primary goal is to get away from the bigger machine due to the weight so If I manage to learn the system I'm sure this will help many others like me. Again thank you for the information.
Try the manufacturer's recommendation FIRST. I have ZERO to gain or lose here, so if you find that traditional methods get the job done, I would rather you just did that. This is merely another approach. Some guys like it while others do not. For some paint types, it may not deliver the results you are looking for. I it is soooo important to try it out on a test panel, or a small section of the vehicle. Small steps... It will keep you out of trouble. As for comparing... if one method works better than the other... that's the better method!
HOLD ON THERE! Missed this... You are NOT a perfect candidate to try this system... I don't think you read the linked post. In it, I SPECIFICALLY wrote: I have intentionally avoided posting information about this method because there are soooo many reasons this method works. I think it is best to give a few pointers now, because there is a lot of misinformation and confusion about the procedure. I do not want newbies to try this method before using what is normally recommended!! NEWBIES- this is NOT for you!!! Until the paper is released, stick with the manufacturers recommendations if at all possible (with exception to the priming part- it helps every time I've tried it). How will you know what to look for unless you try the manufacturer's recommended procedure FIRST? after all, lots of guys polish paint with great success that have never visited a forum, nor heard of the "KBM". Do yourself a favor and look up some basics about how to use the random orbital first. Try the recommended procedures on the bottle of liquid you will be using. Get a hang of using the machine. Only once you have done several cars and see how different paint systems react only then should you try the method we have been discussing (KBM). Good luck, and do not rush ahead.
Thank you again Mr. Brown I think I should had re-phrase my sentence "since this is completely new to me" TO since this KBM system is completely new to me" lots of guys polish paint with great success that have never visited a forum, nor heard of the "KBM". I think I fall into this category but I'm always looking for Innovative Ideas
Space Cadet, what happened to your "results post"? :shead: It was a long post! I looked through it quickly, and was going to respond later... and you removed it! I saw it at around 5:30 PM PST. Oh well, there was a lot of things to cover... Mainly, you should not need to polish for ten minutes per section without cleaning the pad. :yikes: If you repost it we can cover it all later. :waiting:
I agree that the Flex can run a wee bit hot on occasion. Instead of giving it up, there are ways to combat the heat. The heat buildup from the Flex is directly linked to the amount of drag your pad has on the paint. If you are working on paints like Infiniti, some Porsches etc that are known to be sticky, try using a harder pad. The harder pad will glide over the paint with less drag, causing less friction and thus keeping the heat down. You can also try using a pad prime like Gloss it EVP. The added slickness from this product will also help reduce the amount of drag on the pad. Slow the speed down as well. With good pad/polish selection, there is no reason why you can't effectively remove blemishes at 1100-1300 rpm. :thumb:
Hello Mr. Brown, you are correct, I remove the post because I was concern with the size of the photos but here is for your review. Hello Mr. Brown, I took the liberty to do some exercises using your system, please understand that I have never done this particular system neither am I judging/questioning the system, my sole purpose of this exercise was to enhance the little knowledge that I have regarding the detail world. I hope that you can point out what steps or what I did wrong during the exercise, I will take notes and will try again until I get it right. So here’s my take; I will be attempting your system on the left side and the conventional system on the right side of the taped area, my primary goal is to attempt to have the same type of product, same time working on the surface etc. I got my hands on a 1983 Chevrolet trunk lid, original paint,faded and tired from a long road of service. Original Trunk Lid as found Closer View of the surface I washed the surface using a car shampoo “X” brand-the product solution was PH7 dried then using “X” product- I clay the surface, then I washed the surface again. Secured the trunk lid to the table and position a light for better view Closer view of the surface and first concern as I’m not sure if the quality of the panel is the best due to the aged surface I had two orange pads of brand “X” of two different configurations just to try them out, they were clean but with a slightly stain, maybe It was better to start with fresh pads but they really were almost new they were previously used twice. The backing plate to be used, I’m not sure if this makes a huge difference on my test panel as I have seen different types mentioned on the write ups about the system. I was curious about the pressure that will be needed, maybe a little inaccurate but using the home scale I try different pressures to have some sort of guideline, the machine with the pad weighted at 4.5 lbs however I was very surprised how the pressure can fluctuate so much with so little effort. I was able to press very gently and immediately see 12 lbs on the scales a little more pressure and before I realized I was at 36 lbs, this exercise allowed me to have some source of idea on how much pressure I was to use. Since I was trying to be equal from all angles I decided to have the following tools to monitor the exercise. *One tool to measure the amount of product- equivalent to 1 tablespoon *One tool to evenly spread the pad during the “Priming “part *Time Watch I was ready for the “Priming Pad” I was not sure how much product to use so, I started with one tablespoon- I was using “X” brand equivalent to others on the market. I tried the best I could to evenly spread the product; however I remembered that they mentioned that the entire pad should be primed, looking at mine it was obviously not. I had no more products from the first tablespoon so I loaded one more tablespoon- Total used 2 tablespoon of product. Now it look pretty even and not overloaded, at least to me this is what we were after? Maybe not? I was crossing my fingers that I did this part correctly. Closer View of the pad Prior to start this exercise I figured that time was extremely important so I got me a watch, this one is for a 2 minute span, I figured this will allow me to see the progress and monitor the exercise very close I set the speed on the porter cable at 2- half way to the 2 minute mark I felt that the speed was way too slow and not much was happening. So I bumped to 3 -1/2 This is after two minutes at 3 ½ speed with the orange pad, I did not apply anymore product to the already “Primed Pad” (If we can consider what I did correct?) I continued to the next 2 minute span- no additional product was added The next 2 minute span, we have now gone 6 minutes without adding any additional product, this step I felt was the crucial step, as I continued to work on the surface area I began to put a little more pressure on the PC. The only way to describe is that it was almost like having an automatic feeder as the product continued to come from the pad. After that another 2 minutes with a new white pad with another product One more 2 minute span with another product. Total time 10 minutes If you look real close I haven’t started on the right side next to the tape is the old faded paint Now to the right side, I did the same exact procedure but without priming the pad and my findings were as followed: •Since I had to use 2 tablespoon of product that was a lot of product, it got everywhere not to mention that much of it slung out even though I tried to avoid it. •At the 2 minute span (3 er round) my pad was almost dry, I say 90% of the product was gone I had no choice but to add more product to continue, at this time the exercise it not in the same equation as I had to add product. •The same happened with the steps after. •With the end result I was having a hard time trying to identify which side was better; they both looked the same to me. •I’m not sure if the time span was enough •I will try this system again on a surface that has swirl marks and other imperfections. •I’m not sure if I even did this exercise correctly •I had fun trying something new Both sides done •Not related to the exersice but I did notice that at times after wiping the product between steps I could see scratches, I had about 5-6 different microfiber towels from numerous manufactures and all of them were doing it, Any idea why? Anyone cares to comment?
A lot to cover. :thud: After reading the post three times (and I am still not sure I understood everything you were trying to convey :shead, I have concluded that for you it may be best to use traditional methods for applying these products until you better understand how to use the random orbital machine. If you are using M105 by Meguiar's, use the DA approved liquid, and follow the directions on the bottle. You can reach me via e-mail if you wish to exchange phone numbers. I think a little one-on-one chat would work best. Nice effort. :worship2:
Hello Mr. Brown Thank you for your kind offer I took the liberty to do some extensive research and I think that there's a LOT of people confused with this process and it has nothing to do with the operation of the tool. I also found out a lot of information which I was not aware two weeks ago since I'm one of those guys that don’t get involved that much in the Internet detail side of business. I have to tell you that I'm very impressed that you are one of the Michael Jordan's of the detail world, an Instructor and a very close supporter of what has to be the biggest car care company in the world, very impressive indeed. During my research I came across this process, the vendor claims that is the KB Kit In conjunction with three times Olympian Polishing Champion:shead: Kevin Brown, our world class staff, and the help of some of the best detailers in the country, this new KBM (Kevin Brown Method) Kit is designed to increase the efficiency of all random orbiting or dual-action machines For the Porter Cable 7424 Random Orbital Polisher we recommend 20-25 lbs of pressure on speed 5, enough to slow the pad rotation but not stop it. If the pad stops moving in a circular motion you are pressing to hard. When using a more powerful dual-action polisher, use 15-20 lbs of pressure on speed 4. Polish until defects are removed or the polish begins to dry then wipe away residue with a clean microfiber cloth such as the xxx Cloth and inspect your work. xxx Uxxx Cut Compound is an aggressive polish and may leave a light polishing haze on the surface, requiring follow up polishing with xxx Uxx Finishing Compound and a Black Finishing pad.
